The other day I wrote a post on facebook that said:Have to laugh at people who are against spanking. My parents whipped my butt like there was no tomorrow... I didn't hate them.. I didn't have trust issues with them because of it... I didn't fear them... But I darn sure respected them! I learned what my boundaries were, and knew what would happen if I broke them. I wasn't abused, I was disciplined.... *Re-post if you got your butt smacked and survived! This is why kids now a days have no respect for anyone..
Here is what I should have done. I shouldn't have written it because of the problems that it caused me the next few days. Here is what I was thinking. It was all about me. That because my parents spanked me, I turned out just fine.
Here is what my cousin took it as. Her comment stated:
Have to cry when I hear you're still doing that. Or maybe call CPS....Are you laughing because you're jealous that there are parents out there doing it without violence whose kids are great? Or is it because it seems that you've been taught that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong and bad, rather than the possibility that they have a good idea? Maybe "kids today" have no respect b/c their parents were whipped, their families were disfunctional, and they passed that on. Really there's only one question. Spanking is hitting. Hitting is wrong. Do you feel good when you hit your child?
The first thing I have to say about this was that not once did I say anything about my spanking my kids. It was about me and how I turned out just fine. Second, she came at me kicking and screaming. I was very defensive because I felt attacked and wanted to protect my family.
My response was that I deleted her comment. I didn't want that on my profile.
Her response was:"Afraid of my words, now I am the one laughing"I deleted that comment too!
Her response (as you can see she doesn't give up even if I don't respond) was this note that she not only tagged me in but she also wrote my name in it.
Spankingby Mujer del Fuego on Friday, September 9, 2011 at 12:57pm
This is for my cousin Monica, who is apparently censoring me on her Wall. I can understand why, but I have to go off, yall. This discussion is driving me too crazy, and as a child care professional, it's really outrageous. It goes against everything I've learned, been taught, had experience with, and more. Please comment, because this shit is B-A-N-A-N-A-S. I am usually a bit more careful with my advice on parenting, b/c I know it's really hard and personal. But when it comes to actually damaging your kids, I have to speak out. First amendment, thanks!
Ah, the good old spanking debate. I have really only one question: when you spank a child, do you feel good about yourself? I know by the way my heart feels if what I’m doing with children is building a relationship or destroying their dignity. The bottom line for me is that hitting is wrong. There are many reasons why spanking is not the best approach. If you really want to do it, fine, go ahead. But if you really want to improve who you are as a parent and caregiver, and learn to be BETTER than the parents who raised you, have the humility to open your mind to other ideas. What if they work better? Don’t you want to be a better parent? Do you really think your parents had the best experiences in their childhood, experiences of abuse? We repeat the cycles in our families. You know from your childhood how your parents treated you. Did it make you feel good? Did it improve your bond? Or make you want to run away when it came time to disagree with them over a very important life decision involving your future husband?
I am sad to know more and more about the abusive past of our family. Consider that there are things you don’t know. Whipping with belts? That’s outrageous. In addition, the federal, legal definition of child abuse does include spanking. It doesn’t have to leave marks. The key here is that is does serious emotional harm, i.e. the shame and physical violation of spanking.
In situations when you think you may need to spank, you may be relieving your own frustration and anxiety, but not teaching a positive lesson to your children about what they should be doing. Particularly when angry or out of control, these experiences can be terrifying for children. I remember being chased up the stairs by my mother with a wooden spoon, and having her grip by arm very hard. I have no recollection of what she was upset about, or why, nor did I respect her more. I was afraid of her. Whereas I remember very clearly a time a school teacher spoke to me about an unsafe choice I made. We had a discussion, she asked me questions, and in the end I agreed with her that I wasn’t making a safe choice. It is crystal clear in my memory, and she was completely calm and respectful the entire time.
Research shows that positive discipline works better, it’s more effective, and it builds relationships. Children are not as mentally developed as we are, especially kids under age 6. They are simple creatures, in that they move towards pleasure and away from pain. If you are the source of pain, they will move away from you. There are so many other options to consider. First and foremost, check your own expectations. Having an understanding of what is appropriate for the developmental stage of children can relieve a lot of our own confusion about why they act a certain way. In most cases, it’s normal, and it is our compassion for them that needs to expand. Also, warnings of consequences can make a big difference, something like, “Don’t throw your toys, if you do it again, I’ll take the toy away (or depending on the problem) or you’ll have a time out.”
You can set clear standards of expectation, explaining things to a child, like having a discussion when things are calm before a problem starts, & recognize and reward good behavior. This also teaches them to internally monitor their own behavior, and teaches logic. Thus they don’t need an external authority to always be looking over them. They have their own internal moral code to say what is right and wrong. A simple pat on the back or “thank you” goes a long way. This is a major technique I learned that is basically praise, aka “stroking” or “shaping” in child development terms. This is things like, “I like how you came in the room so quietly,” or “I appreciate that you are eating all your vegetables”. Catching them while they are “being good”, and giving them attention for it, is incredibly powerful. It lets kids know what you do like, what you do want, and makes them feel good. If most of the attention you give them is when they are being “bad”, then what does your relationship with them consist of? Yelling?
You can motivate with materials, like “we won’t go to the park until you clean your room”. Having a consistent structure is key for young children. Making sure their basic needs for sleep, food, play, and love are met. Many times misbehavior is a call for attention. All behavior sends a message. If they cannot explain their soul’s deepest conflicts, they can act out by crying. Listen to the message of need behind the behavior. Then there is the simple redirection. I cannot tell you how many times I have redirected 2-year-olds who are fighting over a toy by saying, “hey, look over here at this other toy”. Distraction works great!
My own experience and multitudes of scientific studies show that spanking is not necessary, and there are other options that work better. I hope you will have the humility to find them, and find peace and love in your heart for your children.
But should you need more convincing, here is a brief gleaning from my years of study:
- The emotional difference is that spanking is shaming. Guilt grows naturally from seeing the results of our actions. An example would be where consequences for children are logical, like cleaning up a mess they make. This makes us feel that what we did is wrong. We can survive and learn. Shame, however, makes us feel that who we are is wrong. It’s demoralizing and tears down self esteem. This can lead to violent extremes to avoid that deadly feeling.
- There is an increased risk that children will grow up to display violent or depressive behavior. As the main role model for your children, they follow your example. If you hit, you teach your children that hitting is okay. Children are people too. We are raising adults; they are only children now, temporarily. Do you want to have people in this world who think violence is an okay solution to problems? I sure don’t. I think that’s why we have war.
- Many children learn to be sneaky, and that they only have to behave if their parent/caregiver is watching or they could get caught.
- Spanking becomes less and less effective over time, and as children get bigger it becomes impractical
- Years of studies have shown that children with conduct disorder have had behavior improvements when spanking stopped
In 1998, the American Academy of Pediatrics studied the issue and recommend against spanking: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1718452/pdf/v083p00196.pdf
Dr Sears, one of the most respected and widely read professionals in the realm of child rearing, recommends against it (he also clarifies that it is NOT in the Bible): http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/discipline-behavior/spanking/10-reasons-not-hit-your-child
Every psychology professor I ever had, mental health professional I’ve worked with, graduate student who trained me in crisis intervention, teacher I’ve worked with, or parents I’ve respected have spoken out against it, often having done it first (from their own experience, since it was more common in previous generations) and then changing their approach and liking how not spanking worked better.
Finally, let's hope this doesn't become you: Parents convicted of beating their daughter to death in the name of God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDjUmROiwhs
This Note made me so mad but I still didn't respond.
The conversation between her and a couple other people went like this( have deleted last names to protect people):
Grace I love you.
Mujer del Fuego Thanks. I've been de-family-ified via facebook. I feel accomplished. People really can't handle their SHIT! Maybe it is time to call CPS? I was joking, but y'know I am a mandated reporter....
Grace Giiirrrrlll! I feel you right now! You don't even know! Okay, maybe you do. I told you about my brother spanking when Calvin was only 2. Ten times in a row whilst quoting bible scripture-WTF? Then the " resoration to the family " bullshit! Don't you know I wanted to report him! Shit is creepy.
Dara Have you actually been de-friended? By all of them? Does that mean that you aren't getting the responses that are still coming in?
Dara Anyway, we've talked about this before. I do not believe that spanking is an acceptable form of discipline for many reasons and if pressed I would admit that I do think of even "milder" spanking to be an abusive act. So I agree with what you've written. I just think that as usual your delivery wasn't the most diplomatic. ;)
Jennifer I have no direct connection to this, but before you consider calling CPS over this I am asking you as your cousin and somebody outside of the direct debate to think seriously on this. This was all over a comment on facebook, I understand that you have a differing opinion on the topic than Monica, but as you said everybody is allowed their opinions its part of being a citizen of this country. They are good mom's, and by calling CPS you are putting a horrible light on them that I personally think is not waranted. Not to mention any chance of you having a relationship with that part of the family will most likely be destroyed. There are big consequences for that phone call. They post frequently about going to the pediatrician and specialists, those doctors are all bound by law to report anything *if* something was suspected to be going on ( and for the record I dont believe there is). I think that everybodies life experiences are a big influence on how we view the world, and your life experience is different that monica's or kelsey's, this leads to differing opinions as well as different interpretations of comments or situations. What you think comes off one way to you comes off a different way to somebody else, and I hope that you can step back for a second and look at it from a different perspective. In no way would I ever be the kind of person that would look the other way at an abusive situation, I myself have made phone calls in the past that shed an uncomfortable light on people that I knew, and I can tell you from experience you have to be ready for the ramifications... so all I am hoping is that you will reconsider...
Mujer del Fuego @ Dara - diplomatic, me? Ha! But seriously, working on that...
Mujer del FuegoFor the record, my original statement to Monica (which was immediately deleted): Have to cry when I hear you're still doing that. Or maybe call CPS....Are you laughing because you're jealous that there are parents out there doing it without violence whose kids are great? Or is it because it seems that you've been taught that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong and bad, rather than the possibility that they have a good idea? Maybe "kids today" have no respect b/c their parents were whipped, their families were disfunctional, and they passed that on. Really there's only one question. Spanking is hitting. Hitting is wrong. Do you feel good when you hit your child?
Mujer del Fuego The CPS comment was actually a bit of a joke. If I thought I had serious cause, I would make that phone call. No threats, just fact, that I am a mandated reporter in the state of California. I have made calls like these before in my work, and realize the ramifications.
Jennifer I understand that your intention was a joke, but what you just posted is pretty aggressive and doesnt read as a joke.... my comment was actually directed at your statement above about it may be time to call CPS since you had been unfriended.... I think Dara was right, you made a point that I think could have opened up a great discussion had it not been so aggressive and put them on the defense.... just my opinion...
Mujer del Fuego Thanks Jen, I agree, my style is pretty straight forward. I appreciate your opinion, and won't censor you and delete it. I encourage discussion, so rock on.
Dara Here's my thing. If I was to flip it and post on my wall: "Have to laugh at people who spank. My parents whipped my butt like there was no tomorrow... I hated them.. I had trust issues with them because of it... I feared them... But I darn sure did not respect them! I learned what my boundaries were, and were terrified of what would happen if I broke them. I was not disciplined, I was abused.... *Re-post if you got your butt smacked and were damaged by it! Passing on this dysfunction is why kids now a days have no respect for anyone.." It could be considered to be aggressive, inflammatory, and maybe even hurtful, to some of my broad audience of FB friends and family. It does not express that the poster is open to and respectful of differing parenting styles and therefore it would be hypocritical to be outraged when someone shows the same lack of understanding back. Still B, even though in theory I agree with the points in your essay, you know that there are ways of expressing it that will get you in a lot less trouble.
Mujer del FuegoOkay, yall, just to go off since I do still have the freedom of speech, thank the Goddess: The whole thing about being de-friended or de-familied via facebook? So mature. The trick my uncle used on his daughter when she went against his ways. Shunning from the community or family as a way to force the "sinner" to follow your idea of what is right....or else. Makes you feel all powerful, huh?My cousin Kelsey seems to think you can't discipline children and feel good about it. I actually feel great when I use positive discipline with children, because I know that they have listened to me, understood, and agreed. I sigh with relief that we have resolved problems and grown closer. I am proud that they have an internal moral compass to guide them, and when I ask them to look in their brother's eyes and speak from their hearts, they apologize from a genuine sense of feeling rather than threats of violence.If all YOU feel is bad when you hit your children, maybe you should stop hitting them and find another way to parent. Why is it okay to hit children? Children are people too. And we are talking about babies, for goodness sake, children under 5! Shame on you.
My response(although I didn't write this) was:
1: Where is my freedom of speech? I don't have any when it comes to my cousin.
2: My discipline doesn't include doing it in anger at all.
3: The fact that CPS was even brought up makes me mad. I am a good parent. Who is she to tell me that I am not when she hasn't met my kids and seen me discipline!
4. Who in their right mind feels good to discipine? I sure don't but I know that it is an important job in parenting.
5. Never in my life have I or will I ever beat my children.
This was my response:
Monica First I want to say that I am sorry if I disrespected anyone! I am sorry if my status was hurtful in anyway. I should of read what I wrote more closely. I don't laugh at anyone for the way that they parent. I in no way meant to be aggressive. I am sorry!
Monica I love my children more than life itself! I would give my life for them! I felt it hurtful that CPS was even brought up, even if it was a joke.
Her response:
Mujer del Fuego Why shouldn't I censor you, dear? Should I take your posts down and de-family you? I think you need to think about how the world view you've been taught puts you in opposition to all those who don't share it.
My response( didn't say because it wouldn't be worth it)
1. My response was different because I didn't come at her kicking and screaming. I was very humble. Gave an apology that she didn't deserve. That is how Jesus works! I apologized for making them stumble or making them feel like i disrespected them or their parenting.
Last response:
Mollie This is a really strong statment, Brig. I can see how both sides would be offended. Regarding spanking, I don't spank mine, but ooohhhh wheee have I felt like it before. Particularly when a mouthy teenager is in full force. I don't know whether it has anything to do with spanking or not, but they are both wonderful people whom I admire. They don't behave perfectly (neither do I), but I'd be pretty sad if someone chalked up one of their bad choices as a result of sparing the rod. Thoughtful comments, everyone.
To my cousin's disgrace, I will not stop spanking my child. Here is why:
1. I don't do it in anger
2 Because I love my child.
3 Because the bible says so:
quoted from Bible.com
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT...SPANKING CHILDREN?
Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."
Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early."
The practical wisdom found in these verses in the book of Proverbs covers the subject of child rearing and corporal punishment. Children who are not properly disciplined, are among the most miserable of children. Unruly and spoiled children are not the blessings that the Bible says they should be to parents. When a child is given no boundaries, they feel lost. If they have been given boundaries, yet those boundaries are not maintained, it causes great harm to a child, as they will not only be in dangerous territory, they will also lose respect for authority. This is where we find so many of the children and youth of today. They are rebels, who not only disrespect authority, but openly defy all authority figures such as teachers, policemen, clergy, and their own parents. The blame rests upon the parents of these children, if they have not heeded the advice given in this and other verses found in Proverbs.This brings us to the subject of how we should discipline a child who disobeys the rules. There has been much debate on the subject of corporal punishment (the spanking of a child). Corporal punishment simply means bodily punishment while the definition of spank in Webster's Dictionary is: 1.) to strike with something flat, as the open hand, especially on the buttocks, as in punishment. 2.) to move along swiftly or smartly, a smack given in spanking.
This is what the Bible says about spanking:
Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."
Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
First of all, discipline of children should begin at an early age, whenever a child begins to defy the parent. Remember the old saying, "He who spares the rod, spoils the child." Notice that the Bible says that all children have foolishness in their hearts. The Bible definition of a fool means one who is a rebel, so this is saying that all children have rebellion in them and when it surfaces, it is our duty as parents to drive it out of them. We are to do this by punishing them with a whack on the buttocks with a small reed-like rod. This rod could be a switch from a fruit tree branch or a willow tree branch or a small wooden spoon. It is not to be a large heavy rod or anything that would cause permanent physical damage. The purpose of a spanking is not to cause any lasting bodily harm, but to cause spiritual correction. A spanking should be swift and cause short lived pain that makes a point. That point is that the small pain they feel now will prevent them from feeling great pain by the act they are committing, which could cause them loss of their lives in some cases. (For instance, if a child tries to run across the street, they could be run over and killed.)Some people say that all spanking is child abuse, but this is totally wrong. The real abuse to the child is not to spank them when they need correction. Of course, some parents, who themselves are out of control, can abuse their children by beating them in angry rages. This is child abuse, however, it does not justify doing away with spanking children if it is done properly, and for the right reasons. Parents who beat their children, need help themselves. They are sinful people and they not only will abuse their children by beating them, but will hurt them in other ways as well. Many times, these same children are left to go hungry and uncared for. They have no love. These kind of homes need the love of Christ so that the whole family can be healed. We are not to spank our children with uncontrolled anger, and thus hand out unjust punishment.
Proverbs 19:18(AMP): "Discipline your son while there is hope, but do not (indulge your angry resentments by undue chastisements and) set yourself to his ruin."
Proverbs 22:6: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
Godly discipline will keep children from being dysfunctional later in life. We are told as Christian parents to train our children in the ways of the Lord and when he grows up, he will not depart from that training. Notice it says "train" not "teach." Many parents teach their children right from wrong, but have failed to "train" them to obey. Spanking is part of the training. Many parents yell and threaten their children, but never follow through with the proper punishment and therefore their children get their own way. A disciplined child will bring great delight to parents, while the child left alone will bring shame to the home.
Proverbs 29:15 &;17(AMP):
15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left undisciplined brings his mother to shame.
17 Correct your son, and he will give you rest; yes, he will give delight to your heart.
Ephesians 6:1-4:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Betty Miller has written several books on other topics as well. To view titles or purchase those books click here: http://store.bible.com/
This has been a hard couple weeks. I know that Christ is on my side. My cousin will be judged by my Savior. I just have to continue following and obeying my Lord by being a parent He wants me to be.
Let me make sure that you all know that I am not against other parents and how they parent their children. That is their choice and I at no time will try to change the way they parent. I also don't spank all the time. I use spanking when B is disobedient or rebellious. I also use time outs and natural consequences ( for example: falling backwards when leaning back in a chair is a natural consequence.). I am in constant prayer that God will lead me to be a better parent and during consequences so I won't be responding in anger. As the Lord leads me I want to lead B down the path of eternity with Christ!
I know this is long, but its a major issue for me.
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